the enneagram has been invaluable for me -- it gave me a lot of insight into my psychology that i lacked, and ultimately was an important point on the pathway toward seeing my relationship with EA was pathological and stepping back from it. i bet ChatGPT is a great enneagram coach these days!
I'll take a mini-step into new forms of cringe myself by leaving this probably unnecessary comment about this being a good and thought-provoking piece (while risking fear of perceived flattery in the process).
I feel like a lot of people are aware of the cringe Rubicon and know at some level that crossing it would improve their lives, but, man, is it hard to take that step.
your honesty is refreshing and sharp enough to stop me from avoiding the fact that i avoid many things, in a very predictable and dedicated way. thank you. i enjoyed this piece immensely.
Reading a substack piece on self-improvement is definitely among the first. I was even wondering why I was reading this piece instead of completing an uncomfortable 15-minute-long action I'd been procrastinating on for a few hours. (I did end up taking the uncomfortable action right after finishing reading, so I guess reading the post helped!)
> your career isn’t taking off the way it should. You spend your nights binging on junk food or tv or Twitter.
Why did you have to personally attack me like that
It was quite embarrassing to write originally in Russian and then very cringy to translate it to English. But I am not sure working on it resulting in that much psychological growth? Like, lately I've been writing about cringey things but I feel like the primary outcome is a bunch of published entertaining stories and not huge amounts of progress. Perhaps my cringe isn't existential enough. How do I know if my cringe of the right, existential, type?
“Annihilatory panic associated with our core vulnerabilities” is such a great description of that cringe feeling. I find it very hard to be vulnerable.
I think this is good advice for a certain set of problems, and most people are in need of an injection of courage and trying things. But I also think it could make things worse for host of other problems, mainly because it elides the question of why the existential cringe is there in the first place. I posit that the existential fear isn't irrational at all, but rather your current best strategy for getting what you want- and if it actually is *existential*- then it's likely a loadbearing one. Pushing through works where your system hasn't propagated a change in environment, and so pushing through lets you update on that fact and relax the strategy. Pushing through also works where the act of pushing builds a skill that makes relaxes the need for the strategy in the first place.
I can imagine two people with social anxiety, that heroically decide to get up in karaoke and sing in front of a bunch of strangers and friends. Their performance and the reaction from the audience could be identical and one could takeaway "wow that wasn't so bad after all" and the for other it could be "that was horrible, I'm so embarrassed, I'm never doing that again, this is what I get for putting myself out there" and the knot tightens.
If its actually loadbearing, then trying to push through will result in even tighter procrastination/distraction/disorientation/gripping and make it stronger. And if you succeed in breaking though then you'll end up destabilized, in worse place than before, without the requisite skills to handle your situation. You end up with whatever problem the strategy was trying desperately to avoid. That may eventually lead to a higher local maxima later on, but not necessarily.
Tbc, I don't read you as strictly advocating pushing through.
very good points! i think there's an assumption built into my thinking, which is that the number of people who are capable of stably deemphasizing the (mal)adaptive strategies they developed in childhood is quite a bit larger than the number who would be destabilized by trying. but i agree there's a degree of risk.
I agree, theres a lot of low hanging fruit, coming out of being powerless children, and failure to fully update on becoming a grown ass adult (cultural problem imo). I think everyone is a mix of that and core existential strategies, that would be destabilizing to remove.
Your line of thinking strikes me as Joe Hudson-esque. His solution to the problem is to practice getting comfortable with negative emotions, so that theres no longer anything to avoid. Literally doing emotional reps, like exposure therapy. Its clearly very effective for a lot of people. But I suspect it might be unnecessarily torturous.
Are you familiar with https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5FAnfAStc7birapMx/the-hostile-telepaths-problem ? I think you'll find it interesting and relevant. He proposes a different strategy of being same sided with the cringe/fear, but being curious at the edges. What ultimately unravels the cringe/fear strategy is no longer needing it.
I feel like I read the LW post a long time ago, but I see it isn't very old, so I must be conflating it with something else -- I will have a read through!
And I have heard the same about Joe Hudson several times today so I think you're on to something :)
“You should never confront your fears youve avoided for a lifetime that cause suffering because obviously it must be good for you to be dysfunctional and suffering forever. Here are my theories on why confronting it head on would kill me.”
Jesus Cate. How do you come up with these things and put on the page? These are the things that I subconsciously thought about without connecting the dots and seeing them as a wholesome thought. Reading them all laid out just make me shiver.
Man, this describes exactly how I've been feeling lately. Trying to create and there's just this barrier between me and actually getting anything out. I've never been creative, and I suspect this is partly decades of inertia, but sometimes I wonder if there's more. I had a seriously conflicted relationship (read: hated it) with writing in school, and I happily put it away when I graduated. But lately, I've been having ideas that I want to turn into stories. And there's some kind of resistance...same feeling I used to have as a kid. Some part of me just cannot stand the vulnerability of creating, and it's holding me back.
Really hit home. I feel like I've running from the core feeling... Like trying to not turn around and notice the darkness of the sun right behind me.
What helped you find the feeling behind the cringe? The Enneagram as the primary way? Anything else?
Note: I also asked chatgpt for some prompts and seem good for probing...
______________
Emotional Triggers
What kinds of people or behaviors make me irrationally angry or judgmental?
(Often, what we hate in others points to something we repress or fear in ourselves.)
What’s a recurring negative feeling in my life that I can’t seem to get rid of?
(Look for themes like shame, helplessness, worthlessness, or being unlovable.)
What compliment do I crave most — and what insult would devastate me?
(Flip both to find the avoided identity or feeling.)
💭 Self-Image and Avoidance
What kind of person do I most fear being mistaken for?
(e.g., lazy, needy, ordinary, selfish — this often reflects your cringe minefield.)
What am I always trying to prove about myself? Why?
(The thing you need others to see may protect you from a hidden fear.)
What advice or feedback do I consistently ignore or resist?
(There may be something threatening beneath it.)
🧪 Growth and Resistance
What’s a path to self-improvement that feels unthinkably uncomfortable — not just hard, but embarrassing or cringey?
(e.g., joining a dating app, asking for help, making art badly, promoting yourself)
If I imagined failing publicly at something I care about, what exact feeling or identity would I be trying to avoid?
(Focus on the felt sense in your body — not just the surface story.)
🔄 Patterns and Pain
Where in my life do I feel stuck despite knowing what I “should” do? Why don’t I do it?
(Often you’re avoiding a feeling, not a task.)
What recurring challenge in relationships, work, or creativity do I always blame on external circumstances?
(Look at how your defense against a core fear might be maintaining the cycle.)
the enneagram has been invaluable for me -- it gave me a lot of insight into my psychology that i lacked, and ultimately was an important point on the pathway toward seeing my relationship with EA was pathological and stepping back from it. i bet ChatGPT is a great enneagram coach these days!
I am feeling this as well - the cringe does not even want to be looked at. Maybe there is shame around having such fears
This was all very cool to follow up the post. Thanks for adding that.
SO GOOD
I'll take a mini-step into new forms of cringe myself by leaving this probably unnecessary comment about this being a good and thought-provoking piece (while risking fear of perceived flattery in the process).
Thank you very much for the kind words :D always appreciated
I feel like a lot of people are aware of the cringe Rubicon and know at some level that crossing it would improve their lives, but, man, is it hard to take that step.
I believe in you Charlie :D
Great fiction! I enjoyed this Cate. I suspect you will be very familiar with Carl Jung’s work on the Shadow.
I wonder how Cringe and shadow sit together.
Jung is on my list of "I know I'll love it when I read it, but somehow haven't yet"
But I'm familiar with the concept of the Shadow nevertheless, and like the comparison!
your honesty is refreshing and sharp enough to stop me from avoiding the fact that i avoid many things, in a very predictable and dedicated way. thank you. i enjoyed this piece immensely.
> Which strategies will you pick first?
Reading a substack piece on self-improvement is definitely among the first. I was even wondering why I was reading this piece instead of completing an uncomfortable 15-minute-long action I'd been procrastinating on for a few hours. (I did end up taking the uncomfortable action right after finishing reading, so I guess reading the post helped!)
> your career isn’t taking off the way it should. You spend your nights binging on junk food or tv or Twitter.
Why did you have to personally attack me like that
> Do you know where your cringe minefield lies?
Recently I published a substack post "How I Lost My Backpack with Passports and Laptop", which is, well, about losing my backpack after blacking out on alcohol and phenibut: https://psychotechnology.substack.com/p/how-i-lost-my-backpack-with-passports
It was quite embarrassing to write originally in Russian and then very cringy to translate it to English. But I am not sure working on it resulting in that much psychological growth? Like, lately I've been writing about cringey things but I feel like the primary outcome is a bunch of published entertaining stories and not huge amounts of progress. Perhaps my cringe isn't existential enough. How do I know if my cringe of the right, existential, type?
“Annihilatory panic associated with our core vulnerabilities” is such a great description of that cringe feeling. I find it very hard to be vulnerable.
I think this is good advice for a certain set of problems, and most people are in need of an injection of courage and trying things. But I also think it could make things worse for host of other problems, mainly because it elides the question of why the existential cringe is there in the first place. I posit that the existential fear isn't irrational at all, but rather your current best strategy for getting what you want- and if it actually is *existential*- then it's likely a loadbearing one. Pushing through works where your system hasn't propagated a change in environment, and so pushing through lets you update on that fact and relax the strategy. Pushing through also works where the act of pushing builds a skill that makes relaxes the need for the strategy in the first place.
I can imagine two people with social anxiety, that heroically decide to get up in karaoke and sing in front of a bunch of strangers and friends. Their performance and the reaction from the audience could be identical and one could takeaway "wow that wasn't so bad after all" and the for other it could be "that was horrible, I'm so embarrassed, I'm never doing that again, this is what I get for putting myself out there" and the knot tightens.
If its actually loadbearing, then trying to push through will result in even tighter procrastination/distraction/disorientation/gripping and make it stronger. And if you succeed in breaking though then you'll end up destabilized, in worse place than before, without the requisite skills to handle your situation. You end up with whatever problem the strategy was trying desperately to avoid. That may eventually lead to a higher local maxima later on, but not necessarily.
Tbc, I don't read you as strictly advocating pushing through.
very good points! i think there's an assumption built into my thinking, which is that the number of people who are capable of stably deemphasizing the (mal)adaptive strategies they developed in childhood is quite a bit larger than the number who would be destabilized by trying. but i agree there's a degree of risk.
I agree, theres a lot of low hanging fruit, coming out of being powerless children, and failure to fully update on becoming a grown ass adult (cultural problem imo). I think everyone is a mix of that and core existential strategies, that would be destabilizing to remove.
Your line of thinking strikes me as Joe Hudson-esque. His solution to the problem is to practice getting comfortable with negative emotions, so that theres no longer anything to avoid. Literally doing emotional reps, like exposure therapy. Its clearly very effective for a lot of people. But I suspect it might be unnecessarily torturous.
Are you familiar with https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5FAnfAStc7birapMx/the-hostile-telepaths-problem ? I think you'll find it interesting and relevant. He proposes a different strategy of being same sided with the cringe/fear, but being curious at the edges. What ultimately unravels the cringe/fear strategy is no longer needing it.
I feel like I read the LW post a long time ago, but I see it isn't very old, so I must be conflating it with something else -- I will have a read through!
And I have heard the same about Joe Hudson several times today so I think you're on to something :)
Seems sensible to go incrementally, at least at first, and see what happens before doubling down
“You should never confront your fears youve avoided for a lifetime that cause suffering because obviously it must be good for you to be dysfunctional and suffering forever. Here are my theories on why confronting it head on would kill me.”
There's so much to unpack here. I'll have to reread this multiple times.
Great piece Cate
Jesus Cate. How do you come up with these things and put on the page? These are the things that I subconsciously thought about without connecting the dots and seeing them as a wholesome thought. Reading them all laid out just make me shiver.
that's very kind of you to say!
Man, this describes exactly how I've been feeling lately. Trying to create and there's just this barrier between me and actually getting anything out. I've never been creative, and I suspect this is partly decades of inertia, but sometimes I wonder if there's more. I had a seriously conflicted relationship (read: hated it) with writing in school, and I happily put it away when I graduated. But lately, I've been having ideas that I want to turn into stories. And there's some kind of resistance...same feeling I used to have as a kid. Some part of me just cannot stand the vulnerability of creating, and it's holding me back.
very relatable! for me, it is singing.
This is really good stuff. Lots of gems.
there are few universal truths, but this may be one of them
Great summary. Reminds me of the alchemical idea Jung explored: ‘In sterquiliniis invenitur’
In filth, it will be found
Everything you want is on the other side of f̶e̶a̶r̶ cringe